Information and Communication Technology for Education (ICT4E): The Backstory | Dr. Alexander G. Flor
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Dr. Alexander G. Flor
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1 00:00:09,060 --> 00:00:16,380 Today, I would like to talk about ICT4E: The Backstory.
2 00:00:17,660 --> 00:00:24,280 ICT4E—meaning, Information Communications Technology for Education.
3 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:34,060 And this is the backstory, sort of a backgrounder of other sessions that would follow on ICT4E
4 00:00:34,060 --> 00:00:36,980 policy and standards.
5 00:00:37,540 --> 00:00:48,850 Now, the ICT4E discourse is actually based or is an offshoot of a larger discourse on
6 00:00:48,850 --> 00:00:51,400 the information society.
7 00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:00,380 Now, many of us think that this discourse started very recently, maybe around ten or fifteen
8 00:01:00,380 --> 00:01:11,040 or twenty years ago, but actually the information society traces its roots in economics actually.
9 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:23,600 During the 30’s—post depression 30’s—we could trace it to three Austrian economists.
10 00:01:25,580 --> 00:01:28,480 Friedrich Hayek was the first one.
11 00:01:28,490 --> 00:01:37,240 If you google his name, you will be provided with the link which leads to this information
12 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:44,560 that he is born in Austria-Hungary as Friendrich August von Hayek and he's frequently referred
13 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:52,170 to as FA Hayek, an Austrian economist and philosopher best known for his defense of
14 00:01:52,170 --> 00:01:54,280 classical liberalism.
15 00:01:54,460 --> 00:02:03,480 But actually, he was the person who introduced knowledge economics to the discipline
16 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:05,040 —the economics discipline.
17 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:16,900 Now, again, the backgrounder—consider Germany during the depression; it was being humiliated
18 00:02:16,900 --> 00:02:21,080 by the Allies since it lost during the Second World War.
19 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:34,440 And it had to pay outrageous reparations to the allied countries, but then, just prior
20 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,820 to the war, it became one of the top ten economies.
21 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,000 Now, how did that happen?
22 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:47,600 Was it because of economic policies of Hitler?
23 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:56,360 No—This fellow, Frienrich Hayek, submitted that it was because of science and technology—it
24 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:09,280 was because of knowledge that Germany earned its place as one of the major economies in the world.
25 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:21,140 And one of his associates, Schumpeter, also from Austria—another one of his associates
26 00:03:21,140 --> 00:03:26,460 or actually students is a person by the name of Fritz Machlup.
27 00:03:26,920 --> 00:03:32,740 Now, Fritz Machlup emigrated to the United States, and, at the United States, knowledge
28 00:03:32,750 --> 00:03:38,340 economics began to be referred to as information economics.
29 00:03:38,340 --> 00:03:48,269 Now, he was the person who introduced the trichotomy of the agricultural society, the
30 00:03:48,269 --> 00:03:50,740 industrial society, the information society.
31 00:03:51,020 --> 00:03:58,560 The term Information Society actually came from him but it was one of his students, Mark Porat,
32 00:03:59,700 --> 00:04:11,140 whose 1976 dissertation—a twenty volume dissertation—described the information economy of the US.
33 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:20,780 During Porat's time, he talked about information economics, information-based economies,
34 00:04:21,459 --> 00:04:25,100 industrial-based, economies, agricultural-based economies
35 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:32,860 Now, how is this related—this concept of information society—how is this related
36 00:04:32,860 --> 00:04:37,120 to ICT4E?
37 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:46,780 Well, as I said, the ICT4E discourse is an offshoot of this larger discourse called information society.
38 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:51,520 What makes a society an information society?
39 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:56,260 What makes a country an information-based economy?
40 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:06,920 Well, according to Porat, if the larger number of your workforce are information workers,
41 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:14,500 then your country is an information-based economy—it’s an information society.
42 00:05:14,500 --> 00:05:24,520 If the larger portion of your workforce are agricultural workers or farmers, then your
43 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:26,840 country is an agricultural society.
44 00:05:27,660 --> 00:05:31,300 Now, is the Philippines an information society?
45 00:05:31,300 --> 00:05:38,580 Well, that just happened to be the subject of my dissertation in 1983, then I found—of course,
46 00:05:38,580 --> 00:05:45,380 given secondary data, as well as other sources—that the Philippines is an agricultural society.
47 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:55,480 But in 2007, somehow, our classification was changed from an agricultural, to an industrial,
48 00:05:55,490 --> 00:06:05,130 to an information society—that is because our overseas Filipino workers were classified
49 00:06:05,130 --> 00:06:07,740 as service workers.
50 00:06:07,740 --> 00:06:15,640 Many of them were put into the category of information workers for one reason or another.
51 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:21,620 Now again, what makes us an information society?
52 00:06:21,620 --> 00:06:24,580 I will show you a graph.
53 00:06:24,580 --> 00:06:39,040 Now this graph is called the Volatility Index—The CBOE volatility index—CBOE, meaning,
54 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:44,520 the Chicago Board Of Economics, if I’m not mistaken.
55 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:54,260 Now, this graph shows times when volatility is very high—volatility, meaning, markets—
56 00:06:54,260 --> 00:06:57,660 economic markets tend to sell.
57 00:06:57,660 --> 00:07:02,520 People have lost trust in their stocks so they sell their stocks.
58 00:07:02,740 --> 00:07:11,900 In this graph you would see peaks in 1987 and 2007 or 2008.
59 00:07:12,420 --> 00:07:22,740 Now, a large part of that “peaking up” was due to media coverage of this behavior
60 00:07:22,750 --> 00:07:24,190 in the stock market.
61 00:07:24,190 --> 00:07:37,409 In 2007, if you’re not too young to remember, people watched CNN or ANC while the value
62 00:07:37,409 --> 00:07:38,840 of their stocks fell.
63 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:44,520 And, as this was being covered by [the media], they started selling, selling, selling.
64 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:52,360 So this is, you know, the influence of information and communication in our economy.
65 00:07:52,360 --> 00:08:03,020 Another example—a more recent one—in 15 September 2016, I was on my way to Los Baños along EDSA.
66 00:08:03,020 --> 00:08:07,340 I was caught in EDSA traffic, so I switched on the radio.
67 00:08:07,340 --> 00:08:13,860 This was at around 10:00AM, and lo and behold, the voice that I heard was the voice of
68 00:08:13,860 --> 00:08:17,260 Leila de Lima and Edgar Matobato.
69 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:26,720 And the resource person—it was a senate hearing—the resources person was giving
70 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:32,140 out details of heinous crimes in Davao.
71 00:08:32,140 --> 00:08:37,860 And at that time, I was checking the Philippine Stock Exchange index on my phone.
72 00:08:38,740 --> 00:08:47,880 So this is a picture of the Philippine Stock Exchange index at 10:00 to 10:30.
73 00:08:48,020 --> 00:08:55,340 Now at around 10:00, the witness was giving his testimony and, at that time, the PSE index
74 00:08:55,340 --> 00:08:57,200 dropped drastically.
75 00:08:58,020 --> 00:09:03,040 Now, at around 10:30, he was interpolated by Senator Tito Sotto.
76 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:10,300 And at that time, when Tito Sotto started putting or was punching holes into his testimonies,
77 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:18,560 the stock index was going higher—it went a bit higher.
78 00:09:18,560 --> 00:09:27,740 And [when] de Lima interjected and served as lawyer to the witness again, it went down.
79 00:09:27,740 --> 00:09:34,940 Now immediately after that, I got home, I watched TV and then, also, monitored the PSE
80 00:09:34,940 --> 00:09:36,260 index on my phone.
81 00:09:36,260 --> 00:09:37,900 And this is the image the I got.
82 00:09:38,860 --> 00:09:50,480 Now, if you look closely, the ebbs and flows—the speaking and diving of our index coincides
83 00:09:50,480 --> 00:10:01,440 with interpolations of Senator Sonny Angara and Senetor Cayetano—actually ending with
84 00:10:01,460 --> 00:10:03,360 Cayetano's interpolation.
85 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:17,060 After his questioning the witness, the index was at the same level as it was before 10:00.
86 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:25,251 So, you could just imagine how coverage—how media coverage—how information and communication
87 00:10:25,260 --> 00:10:29,640 could actually dictate the value of your stock.
88 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:31,820 Such is an information society.
89 00:10:31,820 --> 00:10:37,060 How is this relevant to us in the education sector?
90 00:10:37,380 --> 00:10:47,340 Now, one of the foundations—one of the basic assumptions—of the information society discourse
91 00:10:47,340 --> 00:10:51,280 is that information is a commodity that has value.
92 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,000 It should be factored into our economic equations.
93 00:10:55,620 --> 00:11:02,140 Information is something that can be sold or bought.
94 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:07,000 Counterpoint to that is the open access movement.
95 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,980 Now what you see is the universal symbol for open access.
96 00:11:11,980 --> 00:11:13,240 How does it look like?
97 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:21,080 It looks like a padlock, doesn't it? An open padlock with an “O” in the middle
98 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,760 and an “A”, so that's for Open Access.
99 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:32,200 Open Access submits that information is free; knowledge is free; it should be accessible
100 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,920 to all its users.
101 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,160 Now, along that comes the open educational resources.
102 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:49,720 Along the same line, this is what is known as the Creative Commons stamp—the universal
103 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,520 symbol for creative commons.
104 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,900 If you have copyright then you would have copyleft.
105 00:11:55,900 --> 00:12:09,660 Within the information society discourse is the concept of openness in sharing knowledge.
106 00:12:09,660 --> 00:12:18,360 And, what you see now is the coat of arms of the Open University, which refers to the
107 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,800 UK Open University.
108 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,120 Note that its motto is “Learn and Live”.
109 00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:36,380 In 2011, a ranking was made to determine the top 10 research universities [in] the UK.
110 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:44,940 And according to Sir John Daniel, the UK Open University was fifth in that rank.
111 00:12:44,940 --> 00:12:46,640 Number one was Cambridge.
112 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,460 Number three was the London School of Economics.
113 00:12:49,460 --> 00:12:53,400 The fifth was the UK Open University.
114 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,540 It outranked even Oxford, which was number six.
115 00:12:59,900 --> 00:13:09,300 And, this open university—actually it’s becoming a trend—what you see is the seal
116 00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:11,389 of the University of Michigan.
117 00:13:11,389 --> 00:13:18,240 The University of Michigan, like the University of the Philippines, has its open university
118 00:13:19,140 --> 00:13:22,520 and they call their open university Open Michigan.
119 00:13:23,580 --> 00:13:29,500 So perhaps, we should call ourselves Open Philippines or Open UP.
120 00:13:29,500 --> 00:13:33,220 There is also this Nottingham University.
121 00:13:33,220 --> 00:13:35,720 It has its Open Nottingham.
122 00:13:37,540 --> 00:13:44,480 Now, these trends are all offshoots of an Information Society.
123 00:13:44,780 --> 00:13:48,180 You must have heard of concept of mega universities.
124 00:13:48,180 --> 00:13:56,700 A mega university is a university with a minimum of 100,000 actively enrolled students.
125 00:13:57,700 --> 00:14:02,000 This term was, again, coined by Sir John Daniel in 1995.
126 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:08,660 Only 11 such Institution existed by 2011.
127 00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:17,580 There were almost 50 mega universities worldwide and an example of a mega university is
128 00:14:17,580 --> 00:14:28,000 the University of Phoenix in Phoenix Arizona—perhaps, or arguably the most successful Open University
129 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:29,480 in the United States.
130 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,600 And of course, we have our UP Open University.
131 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,540 It’s the 5th constituent unit of the University of the Philippines system.
132 00:14:37,540 --> 00:14:39,580 It’s UP cyber campus.
133 00:14:40,660 --> 00:14:47,800 And, we believe strongly that we pioneered in ICT for education.
134 00:14:47,900 --> 00:14:52,860 We established a faculty of Information and Communication Studies in 2004.
135 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,200 And, 100% of our courses are offered online.
136 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:03,660 Also, as educators, we should be aware of what is known as the Paris Message.
137 00:15:03,660 --> 00:15:13,200 In 2015, 49 countries converged in Paris to deliver this, so-called, Paris Message to
138 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,760 agree, first, and then deliver.
139 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:20,500 Part of the Paris message reads “We call on governments to recognize the important
140 00:15:20,509 --> 00:15:27,050 contribution of online Open and Flexible systems to meet the challenge of scale and quality
141 00:15:27,050 --> 00:15:33,380 in the provision of higher education and lifelong learning for the period 2015-2030”
142 00:15:33,460 --> 00:15:43,400 Consider that Paris Message was drafted the same month as the release of the
143 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:56,520 Sustainable Development Goals 2015, 2030, which has one of its major goal lifelong learning and education
144 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:57,540 for all.
145 00:15:57,540 --> 00:16:05,180 The countries who participated in drafting the Paris Message believed that higher educational
146 00:16:05,190 --> 00:16:17,920 institutions will not be able to accommodate the uptake of college enrollees by 2030 or
147 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,600 even the years towards 2030.
148 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:28,780 There will be a deficit of something like 30 million students who would want to take college.
149 00:16:31,540 --> 00:16:36,920 The educational institutions will not be able to accommodate them because of the lack of
150 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,520 facilities—the lack of space.
151 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,440 And this is the reason why we have to go online.
152 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:49,880 We need to explore or mainstream online open and flexible systems.
153 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:54,940 Yes, ICT is an offshoot of the information society.
154 00:16:54,960 --> 00:17:01,920 ICT, meaning, information and communication—others say communications—technology or technologies.
155 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,240 Information and communication technologies.
156 00:17:05,020 --> 00:17:14,180 It’s a new generation of technologies brought about the merger of computers and telecommunications,
157 00:17:14,180 --> 00:17:18,220 internet the world wide web, so on, multimedia
158 00:17:18,260 --> 00:17:27,920 Now in the late 90’s, somebody felt that it should be applied for the development agenda.
159 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:35,380 And so, we have ICT4D—meaning, Information and Communication Technology for Development.
160 00:17:37,100 --> 00:17:47,100 This movement originated in the World Bank and eventually UN agencies adopted it, such as
161 00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:48,900 UNESCAP and UNESCO,
162 00:17:50,480 --> 00:18:00,720 and, as a subcategory or sub field under ICT4D, ICT4E, Information and Communication Technology
163 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,260 for Education.
164 00:18:02,340 --> 00:18:09,140 In the Philippines, the pioneering institution that went into this is FIT-ED.
165 00:18:09,580 --> 00:18:17,480 Now, the UP Open University was quite fortunate that two of FIT-ED’s thought leaders in
166 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:25,340 the early part of the 21st Century were actually part of our faculty—I'm referring, of course, to
167 00:18:26,140 --> 00:18:34,040 Dr. Lolit Suplido, who introduce e-learning to UPOU, and Dr. Pat Arinto, who is now the
168 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,360 Dean of the Faculty of Education.
169 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:41,960 At around the same time, the CICT was established by the Philippine government.
170 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:54,860 Now, how did ICT4E get into the Philippine education scene, since the time of FIT-ED
171 00:18:54,860 --> 00:18:56,360 and CICT?
172 00:18:56,700 --> 00:19:03,060 Among the intentions of the basic education sector reform agenda in 2006 was to develop
173 00:19:03,060 --> 00:19:06,260 an ICT4E strategy for the Philippines.
174 00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:14,620 And, there were a number of studies that were conducted that led to this ICT4E strategy.
175 00:19:14,620 --> 00:19:22,060 Some of which assumed these proposition that ICT4E programs in the Philippines during that
176 00:19:22,060 --> 00:19:24,620 time tended to be technology driven.
177 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,800 ICT4E programs tended to be donor driven.
178 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:36,120 And, social realities necessitate the appropriate use of ICTs for education.
179 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:42,840 Then, ICT4E had three functional areas:
180 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:51,960 ICT for pedagogy—there was DepEd computerization program, the DTI PCs for public schools project,
181 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:59,180 iSchools, eSkwela, Community eCenters, the ASEAN School Net—consider this was from
182 00:19:59,180 --> 00:20:07,520 the period of 2004 to 2007, the APEC ICT model school project, and so on and so forth.
183 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:14,000 There [was a] systematic exploration of the feasibility of e-learning for basic [education],
184 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,660 which was yet to be initiated.
185 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,640 The next functional area was ICT for teacher development.
186 00:20:21,220 --> 00:20:28,340 There was the CHED initiatives on standards for ICT teacher competencies—I think which
187 00:20:28,340 --> 00:20:35,400 is part of this program that is developing is open educational resource,
188 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:44,380 Intel's teach to the future, FIT-EDs instructional design workshops, etcetera, etcetera.
189 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:50,160 Third functional area is ICT for governance and management.
190 00:20:52,220 --> 00:20:59,920 DepEd then had a number of databases: the Basic Education Information System and others.
191 00:21:01,180 --> 00:21:04,260 Now, there were structural issues then.
192 00:21:04,260 --> 00:21:08,080 DepEd had no organizational readiness.
193 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:13,200 The current organizational structure of DepEd may not be very conducive to networking.
194 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:19,520 Information and communication flows were stymied instead of flowing freely horizontally, vertically
195 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:20,260 and radially.
196 00:21:20,260 --> 00:21:25,540 I understand that, nowadays, there is a move to improve this [in the] internal communications
197 00:21:25,540 --> 00:21:27,200 within DepEd.
198 00:21:27,580 --> 00:21:33,160 And the symptom was that there were too many channels for too much paperwork.
199 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:40,760 The organizational culture of the department was possibly averse to knowledge sharing and reuse.
200 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:49,420 There were also political issues, such as interfacing and coordination among the different
201 00:21:49,420 --> 00:21:50,300 bureaus.
202 00:21:51,220 --> 00:21:55,800 One project would develop its own database another project would develop its own database
203 00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:00,010 and [these databases] do not communicate with one another, they cannot exchange data, [and
204 00:22:00,010 --> 00:22:01,780 they cannot merge data.
205 00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:04,700 There were also programmatic issues.
206 00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:09,700 There is very little appreciation of primary, secondary and tertiary impacts of ICTs in
207 00:22:09,700 --> 00:22:12,040 the development setting.
208 00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:15,180 What determines current ICT program design?
209 00:22:15,180 --> 00:22:21,190 It’s actually assessment needs or donor agendas.
210 00:22:21,190 --> 00:22:24,840 It’s based on social agendas or technologies.
211 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:32,130 The relevance and sustainability would be enhanced if impetus for the project came from
212 00:22:32,130 --> 00:22:34,240 a real and felt need
213 00:22:35,020 --> 00:22:41,180 The conclusion of this different studies, then—among these studies [was one which
214 00:22:41,180 --> 00:22:47,880 was funded] by CIDS, the Center for Integrative and Development Studies—is that, in spite of
215 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:54,560 clear visioning among ICT4E advocates, programs tend to be insensitive to social
216 00:22:54,560 --> 00:23:04,300 realities because of the lack of proper appreciation of higher order impacts of ICTs, donor agency,
217 00:23:04,300 --> 00:23:09,600 country agendas, industry agendas, [and structural] issues within DepEd.
218 00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:18,440 And, there are a number of policy instruments that were introduced or proposed.
219 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:26,730 The first one was defining the coverage of ICT to include traditional media—not only
220 00:23:26,730 --> 00:23:32,460 those where computers and telecommunications merge.
221 00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:36,760 Another policy instrument was an appropriate use policy.
222 00:23:38,540 --> 00:23:43,540 The rationale of which was that with that with the adoption of the above definition,
223 00:23:43,540 --> 00:23:49,170 what follows is an appropriate use policy that sets efficient and effective utilization
224 00:23:49,170 --> 00:23:50,040 guidelines.
225 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:57,460 The next policy instrument that was proposed then was donor coordination and harmonization
226 00:23:57,460 --> 00:24:00,460 and public private sector partnerships.
227 00:24:00,460 --> 00:24:14,391 Now, all of these studies—these policy options—all contributed to an ICT4E strategy of the Department
228 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:22,140 of Education which will be one of the topics in a future session.
229 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:32,100 So, I will end with my favorite point or stanzas from a very old poem:
230 00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:37,860 Endless invention, endless experiment, Brings knowledge and motion but not of stillness;
231 00:24:37,860 --> 00:24:43,180 Knowledge of speech, but not of silence; Knowledge of words and ignorance of the Word.
232 00:24:43,780 --> 00:24:46,500 All our knowledge brings us nearer to our ignorance,
233 00:24:46,500 --> 00:24:51,160 All our ignorance brings us nearer to death, But nearness to death no nearer to God.
234 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,060 Where is the life we have lost in living?
235 00:24:53,220 --> 00:24:55,300 Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
236 00:24:55,300 --> 00:24:57,320 Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?
237 00:24:57,750 --> 00:25:03,300 The cycles of Heaven in twenty centuries Brings us nearer or farther from God and nearer
238 00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:04,000 to the Dust
239 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:05,140 —T.S Elliot
240 00:25:05,140 --> 00:25:09,540 [This is a poem] which he wrote in 1934, [entitled, The Rock].
241 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,560 Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
242 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,100 Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?
243 00:25:16,420 --> 00:25:24,480 We hope that the educational sector will not be asking these questions to itself.
244 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:25,800 Thank you very much.
